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iniviate

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coonbottom

It will be a mess until O-dawg bans all firearms, self-defense laws, and dissolves the courts in his 4th term.


and this country will let it happen....


Quote:
Originally Posted by iniviate

No. Yes. 
Depends on what the judge's and jury's definition of vigilantism is. 
SCOTA said that is was not law enforcement's responsibility to prevent crime or to protect. It was to respond to a crime. 

So, is it now a civic duty for civilians to help prevent crime? Well ..maybe. But the prosecuting attorney would probably ask why didn't you just call 911? *shrug*


1. the police attempt to prevent crime every day. the SCOTA is just saying they can't be held responsible when they fail.
2. citizens are not police/law enforcement.

It's not a civic duty to help prevent crime, but it's not a crime either.

.... and zimmerman did contact the police.

Quote:

Their defense could be, "I was at the wrong address and some crazy huge cracker came up and scared me. I am allowed to defend myself!".


except, in my scenario i was assaulted. in yours, the person was scared.



Quote:
I mean, if I didn't know you and you came up to me yelling at me I would probably reach for a weapon also. Even if I wasn't casing a place.


and you would be guilty of brandishing a firearm. (assuming weapon = gun in this case)

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coonbottom

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Reply with quote  #22 
I totally forgot to reply to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by iniviate
He was attempting to just watch him from the truck until the police got there, but he lost sight of Travon, that's why he got out of the truck. 

Turns out, Travon was waiting, hiding, ready to confront Zimmerman.

I was going to tie my whole, "civic duty" statement into this reply.

This is the point where he screwed up and the incident became an issue. This was his action that led to the fighting and subsequent shooting. This was Zimmerman's actions that could have caused manslaughter charges.

At what point does your civic duty to help prevent crime become vigilantism? I agree with the defense that Trayvon might have been simply hiding from the dude. I would probably do the same. 

Now, whether Zimmerman could have walked right by and never seen him or did Trayvon really jump out to ambush, well, I don't know. I don't know the whole story and does anyone really? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iniviate

and this country will let it happen....

If not with o-dawg, it will eventually with another president. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iniviate

1. the police attempt to prevent crime every day. the SCOTA is just saying they can't be held responsible when they fail. 
2. citizens are not police/law enforcement.

It's not a civic duty to help prevent crime, but it's not a crime either.

.... and zimmerman did contact the police.

As far as law enforcement and crime prevention, I never read the opinion so I might be talking completely out of my ass here but basically it was to enforce already existing constitutional limitations. A cop can't follow you around because they think you might be casing a 'hood or keep driving by a house because they just think you are baking meth. But at the same time, it isn't their responsibility to stop two neighbors from yelling at each other. 
Course, like I said, I could be 100% wrong on that.

So, at what point does it become a crime to try and stop crime? 
A guy was raping a girl. You shoot the dude, save the girl, but you were trespassing at the time. Could that make you open to a civil suit? This isn't a rhetorical question, I really would like to know. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iniviate


and you would be guilty of brandishing a firearm. (assuming weapon = gun in this case)

Yup. Which is totally stupid to me.

If Zimmerman had pulled the gun as soon as Trayvon jumped out, the kid might have gone, "F this" and ran. He would have still been alive but Zimmer could have been arrested. Instead, a dude is dead and another man is completely innocent because he shot him after the fight started. 

Should it be illegal to pull a gun to keep a situation from escalating to violence? 

Stupid laws are stupid.

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BossLady720

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Reply with quote  #23 
Nobody will ever know what really happened. There is three sides to every story. His, Trayvon's and the truth. All I'm saying is if or when I have to shoot someone creeping around my house at night I'm not calling the police I'm dragging their ass deep in the woods an letting the hogs eat them . Problem solved. No police no problem.
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iniviate

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coonbottom

At what point does your civic duty to help prevent crime become vigilantism? I agree with the defense that Trayvon might have been simply hiding from the dude. I would probably do the same. 

Now, whether Zimmerman could have walked right by and never seen him or did Trayvon really jump out to ambush, well, I don't know. I don't know the whole story and does anyone really?



You become a vigilante when you take the law into your own hands. There is no evidence that supports zimmerman doing that, so to think that he did is just speculation.

I recently followed a truck with a very, very impaired driver. I called the police and followed the truck until the police found him. I watched him commit 2 hit and run accidents while following at a safe distance.

Am i a vigilante?  


Quote:

As far as law enforcement and crime prevention, I never read the opinion so I might be talking completely out of my ass here but basically it was to enforce already existing constitutional limitations. A cop can't follow you around because they think you might be casing a 'hood or keep driving by a house because they just think you are baking meth. But at the same time, it isn't their responsibility to stop two neighbors from yelling at each other. 
Course, like I said, I could be 100% wrong on that.


i haven't read it either, so i could be too...


Quote:
So, at what point does it become a crime to try and stop crime? 
A guy was raping a girl. You shoot the dude, save the girl, but you were trespassing at the time. Could that make you open to a civil suit? This isn't a rhetorical question, I really would like to know.


i don't know any real answer to this. only my opinion...

Quote:

Yup. Which is totally stupid to me.

If Zimmerman had pulled the gun as soon as Trayvon jumped out, the kid might have gone, "F this" and ran. He would have still been alive but Zimmer could have been arrested. Instead, a dude is dead and another man is completely innocent because he shot him after the fight started. 

Should it be illegal to pull a gun to keep a situation from escalating to violence? 

Stupid laws are stupid.



you can't have that.... you'll have morons pulling out a pistol every time someone gets cut off in traffic.

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iniviate

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossLady720
Nobody will ever know what really happened. There is three sides to every story.


one person knows... but yes, i agree.



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Originally Posted by mcreynoldsair
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slightlytrashy

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Reply with quote  #26 
Trayvon Had 4 Minutes to call the cops, his dad, his mom, his brother, batman, superman or al sharpton. But he didnt! He could have went to any of those houses and knocked on the door and asked for help, but he didnt. 4 Minutes is a long time in a scenario like that. Plenty of time to set up shop and wait for zimmerman to slip up. Did zimmerman put himself in an awkward position? Maybe. But he didnt commit any crimes any civilian can follow anybody and not break a law, they can even ask them what they are doing. Now the flip side to that is when they ask you what you are doing you can tell them to F off its none of their business. The only people that arent allowed to follow warantless or ask questions are the cops (Without Probable Cause). So as far as zimmerman following him no laws broke.

Now with that said, im glad he was found not guilty for the sake of self defense laws. As far as him being afraid for his life and feeling singled out and hated for being a racist, i could care less. He Voted for obama both elections and if he is stupid enough to vote for the guy that is pushing this race war and wanting to make an example out of him and votes for him again, well then I have to say sorry about your F'n luck retard! He deserves what hes got coming as far as im concerned.

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coonbottom

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Reply with quote  #27 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BossLady720
All I'm saying is if or when I have to shoot someone creeping around my house at night I'm not calling the police I'm dragging their ass deep in the woods an letting the hogs eat them . Problem solved. No police no problem.

If it was only that simple for all of life's problems.

Thief digging through your shed? Shoot'em and feed'em to the hogs.
Asshole in traffic tail gating you? Shoot'em and feed'em to the hogs.
Can't balance your check book?  Shoot'it and feed'em to the hogs.
Have a frying pan you can't scrub clean? Shoot'it and feed'em to the hogs.

 

But seriously, in your example, what if it was a drunk person coming home and thought they were at their own house? Just because a person is a lush and a moron doesn't mean they should become hog food. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iniviate

Am i a vigilante?   

No.
But what if you had tried to stop him? 

What if you had pulled in front of him to try and slow him down?

What if you had pulled a pit maneuver on him? 

What would the outcome be if you had put him into the ditch but it broke his neck while doing so?

You might have saved a bus full of school children from getting killed but, you are the murder in this scenario. That is the problem with, "what if's"...

At what point does a person go from trying to do the right thing to taking the law into their own hands? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slightlytrashy
any civilian can follow anybody and not break a law, they can even ask them what they are doing. Now the flip side to that is when they ask you what you are doing you can tell them to F off its none of their business. The only people that arent allowed to follow warantless or ask questions are the cops (Without Probable Cause). So as far as zimmerman following him no laws broke.

I can't comment on this because I am not sure what stalking laws are in Florida. There might be some sort of harassing misdemeanor charge? But yeah, a logical person would have stopped and asked Zimmer what was he doing politely. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slightlytrashy

Now with that said, im glad he was found not guilty for the sake of self defense laws.

Meeeee to!

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iniviate

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coonbottom

Quote:
Originally Posted by iniviate

Am i a vigilante?   

No.
But what if you had tried to stop him? depends how I tried. 

FWIW - At one point, I was directly behind him at a stop light, while he appeared to be slumped over in the seat. I considered going up and attempting to get the truck in park & get the keys..... but, I generally assume everyone is carrying. I didn't want to get shot.

What if you had pulled in front of him to try and slow him down? I don't see a problem.

What if you had pulled a pit maneuver on him? Vigilante for sure 

What would the outcome be if you had put him into the ditch but it broke his neck while doing so? I would be in trouble, as I took the law into my own hands when I did the pit maneuver.

You might have saved a bus full of school children from getting killed but, you are the murder in this scenario. That is the problem with, "what if's"...

At what point does a person go from trying to do the right thing to taking the law into their own hands? 



when they take the law into their own hands.... duh.

seriously though, you're not allowed to break the law just because you're trying to do the right thing.


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Originally Posted by mcreynoldsair
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GOGATORS70

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitville1
Pretty sure the dispatch person told him NO DO NOT PURSUE HIM wait for the cops to arrive just saying... if any of yalls white kid was "doing the wrong thing" and a black guy shot and killed him... would the black guy still be not guilty???


This is the problem with what you are saying it is what alot of people do because this so polarizing. The dispatch did not say "do not pursue him" she said "are you following him" he said "yes" she "we do not need you to do that" . Nothing Zimmerman did was against the law, being neighborhood watch and following someone my be lame and a snitch to some people, but not against the law. That is just one example of the way facts of the case have manipulated, everyone has formed an opinion and then makes the story fit said opinion. 
And if by "doing the wrong" you mean beating the shit out of someone that was legally armed, black or white or pink it is still a self defense issue.

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iniviate

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitville1
Pretty sure the dispatch person told him NO DO NOT PURSUE HIM wait for the cops to arrive just saying...


"pretty sure" you might need to check your facts. that's not what the dispatcher said to him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitville1
if any of yalls white kid was "doing the wrong thing" and a black guy shot and killed him... would the black guy still be not guilty???



correct.

btw - who's the white guy in this? zimmerman is hispanic.

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iniviate

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitville1
So get your grown ass up and fight back don't just whip out your pistol and kill someone because your a pussy that can't Handel a 17 year old kid that's the size of a damn pen... I'm not saying he's wrong or right it just could have went a different way but it is what it is..



it's just too bad that martin wasn't able to get his hands on the illegal gun he was trying to buy.... could have been a fair fight then, right?

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GOGATORS70

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Reply with quote  #32 
That is why the law exists not everyone is a bad ass fighter. Do they not deserve the right to defend them selves? This was not a bar fight between two drunks 30's style boxing, one man attacked the other and was punching his face in and bashing his head against the sidewalk. It is clear self defense if no laws are broken leading up to the point when he was to defend himself. In almost any tragic event you can say something could to have been done different to prevent the event from happening, on both sides. The fact is both of the individuals actions lead them to a point of life changing outcome. 
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iniviate

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitville1
Close enough to what she said...


close enough, just tweaked a little to fit your argument, right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitville1
not trying to get in a pissing match with anyone Hispanic whatever..



i'm not either. i'm just correcting some facts that you have wrong.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitville1
my cuzin was killed almost the same way except he was trying to stop a grown man from beating the shit out of a 15 year old kid.. all he did was throw the guy off him and went to pic the boy up and got shot 8 times in the back... so that's self defense also?? Probably wouldn't have herd about it Cuz it was white on white crime...



hard to say without all the facts... but no, doesn't sound much like self defense.

don't hear much about black on black crime either..... or white on black crime, since you want to make it about race.

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GOGATORS70

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Reply with quote  #34 
What happened to your cousin is very sad, sorry for your lose. That situation is not even remotely related to this situation. Martin did not get killed in the act of stopping a crime, as it sounds like your cousin was. Stopping a crime that is, the guy that killed your cousin was commenting a crime therefore does not fall under self defense laws. What if the 15 year old he was beating on shot and killed the man, would you have said he should " fight back don't just whip out your pistol and kill someone because your a pussy"?
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RedRio88

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Reply with quote  #35 
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GOGATORS70

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Reply with quote  #36 
Don't be sorry, opinions are all yours and you should not be sorry for them. If more people could have rational discussions like this one maybe we would have less misunderstandings that lead to violence.
By the way is Fruitville in reference to the road in Sarasota county, I live in Venice. If so was that story of your cousin local, it would be a shame if I live so close and have not heard of it. 

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GOGATORS70

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Reply with quote  #37 
Maybe I'll see ya on labor day at RNYC. I'll be the drunk guy
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coonbottom

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Reply with quote  #38 
This just goes to show you how asinine fire arm laws are in this state:
http://news.yahoo.com/zimmerman-trial-turns-spotlight-another-florida-self-defense-005758230.html


I have nothing to go on other than what this biased article says. But, it goes to show you, if you are going to pull a firearm on someone- Kill them.
 
This deserves its own thread really but...
One of the security guards in my building that I respect told me that if you ever feel threatened, don't hesitate to shoot someone but just make sure you keep shooting them until you get their attention. 

That goes against everything else I was ever taught. If you have to shoot someone, keep shooting center mass until the machine stops. If all else, because, "Dead men tell no tales". 

So, you might not face murder charges if you gut wound someone who is about to kick your butt, but you could be facing 20 years in prison, assault with a deadly weapon, etc. 

In the case of the lady from J-ville it sucks for her because she did the right thing. If the husband did have a history of violence then shooting at him should get his undivided attention. But that makes sense. I guess she should have shot him in the face and really got his attention. Based on his criminal history, I don't see any jury convicting her of murder if she had killed him. Instead, she is getting 20 years. 
*facepalm*

Dammit Florida...

Worst part about that case is, it has nothing to do with race. The media wh0res are trying to make it an issue about race to further their agenda. The real issue is dumb laws. 


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GM_Cody

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Reply with quote  #39 
How do the "stand your ground" law and self defense differentiate? Seems like that alexander case would of been self defense too... but i guess he would of had to actually attack her for it to be self defense....? Idk

I think if you know your going to get in a confrontation with your spouse like that (alexander case) i would rather prevent the attack from happening (like she did by firing the gun at the wall).... but theres multiple stories/sides to every issue so its another gray area of the law
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iniviate

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Reply with quote  #40 


i haven't been following it, but this is apparently the guy's side of that story....

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-05-16/story/marissa-alexanders-husband-says-it-was-her-violent-nature-led-shooting

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